Heino Dittmar Boulton P111

Hello,

I have the Offshore plans of heino's p111 but this is designed for minifan480 (76cm winspan) . I'd like to know the original wingspan of his 60mm version.

I copied the formers in CAD and did some FSA measurements. Intake tube is 110%. Thrust tube 100% for minifan480. The catchement area is larger as 110% which shows this plan is designed for thrust and low amps, but not for sport/speed but this plane performs extremely well at good speed!

I am reconsidering to redesign the plans for even better performance.

Any thoughts are welcome!

Erik
 

Putzi

User
Hi Erik,

maybe you could ask Martin Höller for some help.
He has already built several P111 in different sizes and I'm sure he will be able to help you a lot.

Good luck with your project

TIMO
 
Hi Timo,

Maho has my FD1 now ;) Somehow I need to reduce 50% weight on my version to make it possible to fly at my field. Unfortunately, the Fd1 is not an everyday jet (big) and i'd like to make a comfortable sized P111. I have been thinking very long to make an 1metre P111 but this would be a tight fit on the backseat of the car. The 70mm version seems to be a little too big for handlaunch.
Unfortunately, Martin has not the original offshore plans or reference of the original sized version from Heino which was powered with sp300 motors and 60mm fan. I don't believe the 70mm version is the original size.

I am reconsidering to redesign the plane for 60mm and 28mm motor. I don't want to use a smaler motor because I have many problems with small innerrunners and outrunners (too hot, small bearings).
 
Hallo,

This p111 plans from Heino Dittmar still is a nice project on my list to build. A kitcar project and Sig four Star-40 project need to be finished first.
A little illness gave me some time to redesign this P111. it is a combination of dimensions of the Offshore plans and 3-views found on internet. I have intended to make this design to be build easier and faster as Dittmar's design. It should be able to fit 4x THUNDERPOWER 65C LIPO BATTERY ,TP REFERENCE TP2250-2SPP65.
High C-rated cells have been chosen because these tend to be a bit heavier and bigger to be sure most cells will fit in this tight fuse.

The fan is wemotec minifan480 cut down to 60mm (mini60). Wingspan 650mm. The design should be able to cope with any powerlevel one can fit in. common sense shows 60A would be the limit for 2 minutes flight time which is about 1600W for 8s setup if one can find one suitable motor.Controller in the thrust tube is spin55 (8s)/spin66(6s). The thrusttube is rear part of the fuse as well. The intake tube is 1 piece sheet which is placed through the formers for max strenght and simplicity .
The thrusttube design is a copy of my Destiny nacelle (16edf,4s2200 XPS 35C, hacker master40SB,600W). luckely the cone was only 1 degree less as the p111 fuse so little changes needed to be made.this nacelle is 180gr.

For 6s one batteriebay could be used for ESC or gps.

Still the plan needs some little imput by yourself:
-cone templates need to be designed.
-The airfoil templates (MH43 planned like the original version) are not included.
-Batterie hatch is 28mm wide, on top and on the bottom of the fuse and need to be improvised. An example how the cells fit in the fuse is drawn in the plans.
-Bunghee hook not included yet (block in front of s2).
-The hatch is very narrow so that the opening can be covered by the canopy width.
-As like RBC kits, building manual is minimal ,limmited to this post only which dictates experenced builders or decent research on forums to cancel out bad crashes by inexperienced builders/pilots. You will be operating this plane at your own risk!

Caution:
-This plane is designed to be faster as my Uriah-BU.effllux speed would be much higher as a minifan480 but the wingspan of only 650mm is extremely small for this power level. For high power levels I do recommend experieced sp400 pylon skills similar like 400-550W Voodoo and good eyesight.
-Experience with building and finishing techniques similar like RBC recommended.
-The intake tube+shroud+thrusttube is a one piece part when assembled for maximum strenght and the setup should be benchtested first before sheeting the fuselage.
-I myself do prefer the Mh43 airfoil but I have not done research if this airfoil gives risk of high speed stalls.
-I do recommend elevon levers in the centre of the rudders too prevent flutter and the use of reliable hardware (no chinese parts).
-All hardware exept the batterie packs need to be permanently installed before sheeting the fuse. because the p111 seems to be a great jet this seems not to be a big problem.
-For servos I do like graupner DS292MG.

Because of time restrictions I cannot build this plane within the coming months. This .dwg will be send to you by PN. Just send me your e-mail adress. It will be updated often by your input/advice. I think it is approx 90% ready now. Yes, it is shareware and free so if one can host this I'd be pleased!

If there are details which can be improved i'd be happy to be notified in this thread and not by e-mail correspondence.

Next post I'll try to upload pics.

br,
Erik
 
Nacelle of Destiny is similar for the p111, only the rudder will be glued on top of it. intake radius will be former s6
intake radius of Destiny nacelle is made of MDF and is a very nice material for intakes. needs only CA or epoxy to make it very hard. the unidirectional fibres makes sanding easy.

Bottom pic is of Uriah-BU and Jepe Pyranha the Uriah-BU is as fast as MPX funjet+kolibri (300kmh) the P111 should be able to fly faster. A new Uriah project is planned in the future.
 

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Hoeby

User
Erik,

In an other forum you where saying that deltawing is not ideal for flying fast.
This because a delta will loss speed in corners. Still you choose for a delta design, the p111.
Is this because you love those designs, or because they are capable in high speeds when flying straight?

Greetings paul
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NJfHk4fPUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeyuWTilaCI

my project:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTfXyKsI6CQ

many people use deltas for their pulse jets because the wings are the strongest construction, NOT because they are fast. Frontal area and parasitic drag is very high on deltas. For maximum speed this would not be my choice.

I like experimental jets, german and brittish, The p111 is the best scale project for edf. Good intake design, wide speed range and no stalls. seems to me well worth the effort to build one and have a lot of fun. Yelow fuse helps a lot too.

Fortunately the MH43 airfoil copes pretty well in cornering. Not sure if high speed stalls are an issue.

br,
Erik
 

Hoeby

User
Erik,

I would like to ask, is it possible to use a canopy from the heino dittmar design.
Or is your re-design that much different, that it needs a complet other canopy?

In the wait of building/drying glue of the planes i am building now. I have the drawings opened en printed.
I am thinking about adding an extra cross-section in front of the fan. Reason for this is, that the fan can be removed.
I have a 2W20 on the shelf which i want to use first. But when flying great but wanting more, than i can change the motor whitout breaking the plane.
Extra weight will be minimal for this change on Eriks plans

A picture, for making this in de P111 design, so that de fan can be removed
SH102795%20(Large).JPG
 
Hi Hoeby,


Nice to see you started this project already!
This P111 is 65cm wingspan and the Heino's version 75cm. You need to make a new canopy for this version but you can do this after maiden flight.

The 2w20 on 4s is very good power already. I have this on my Destiny with Masterbasic40sb and 4s which is 40-42A. If you want more power you can reconsider 16/15/2,4s(ca 900w) the 2w20 would be ca1150W on 6s BUT the similar 16edf has much less inner resistance and might boost op the power even more. I measured the 16edf on 3s and showed 250w of power which makes this motor cell range from 3s-6s which is extremely wide for edf aplications so there will be power levels for novice and experts.;)

former s5 and S6 have been planned to be glued together but you can make them slot-able rbc P212 style.
s5 is for the balsa strip planking, S6 is for making the shroud+cone very stable and the shroud round for the rotor.
I do recommend you to build the fan shroud+mini60+cone first and do some good balancing first before adding the intake tube. On the Destiny I cut down the rotor fiirst, balanced the setup in minifan480 shroud, marked the position of the nosecone, disassembled and made the shroud fit for 60mm inner diameter. The 0.4ply shroud can be wrapped around 60mm pvc tube and you can use the tube as guidance to make the shroud perfectly aligned in the ply tube.

When I cut down the minifan to 60mm I drilled 1mm holes in the stators to bolt servo screws through the shroud and glued the stators with epoxy along the innerside of the shroud.

If you want to make very accurate templates I'd recommend to pin the printed paper on the wood and cut out the shape with a hobby knife. Draw a grey line in the knife grove in the wood and use a belt sander to sand towards the line. This makes exellent wing cutting templates as well within a few minutes.

BTW. The only reason to make the cone removeable is to retighten the motorbolts which may come lose due to heat or small vibrations. you may reconsider to use minimal lock-tite for this (only in the bolt thread or it will eat the plastic!)

good luck!
Erik
 
Nice plane at#5

Nice plane at#5

Hello,
i see a very nice plane on #5 (the left one). It is a kit? Sorry for my englisch.....

So Long
Stephan
 
Hello Stephan,

Die unterste bild gibt ne eigene entwurf Uriah-BU und Jepe Piranha. Die Uriah-BU war letzten jahr genau so schnell wie ein MPX Funjet+kolibri, aber nur mit 2w20/4s/550W. Die Funjet war 300kmh gemessen mit radarpistole. Leider ist die construction nur geignet fur expert verklebers;) und gute piloten. Weil diese contruction am grenze ist war ein "shareware" design recht risicovoll weil es immer jemand gibt wer mehr leistung darfen reinbasteln. Deshalb bleibt dies nur ein eigene projekt aber die Destiny und P111 concept sind spater fur eine neue high speed project basiert.

Die riesigste problem bei nachsten Uriah-bu entwurf ist flatter oder flugelbruch bei hohe G-kraften wenn man eine neue design fur 350+kmh anfangt was shon recht realistich war IMO.

baudraht:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1056417
weitere research:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1070119
Hier gibt es viele beispielen weil leichter und weniger immer besser ist. Deshalb wirdt diese P111 recht small entwurfen, wahrscheinlich wie original von Heino.

Hier gibt's ne vdo von ersten testfluge der Uriah-BU bei etwa 260kmh. Nach einige modificationen genau so schnell wie Funjet+kolibri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sf3fcOy2Sk&list=UUyaxPhv846IuHuElM2avsQg&index=19

gruss,
Erik
 

Hoeby

User
Ich hatte eine copy gemacht von die Uriah von Erik, ich habe sie gemacht von die bilder und eine bau-plan gemacht (auch ohne share).
Wie Erik gesagt hatte, dass modell ist schwierig um zu bauen. Meine ist nicht ganz wie die von Erik, nicht so gut optimiert. Mein flugel ist nicht im mitten von die fan, aber 30% von oben.
Leider habe ich 3 fluge gemacht, mehr nicht. Warum? Ich hatte eine bau fehler gemacht mit die fleugel. Wie schneller dass modell flog, wie mehr nach rechts dass modell geht.

Eine bild von meine copy
P1020981k.jpg
 

Hoeby

User
Dass erste holz für die P111 habe ich im hause.
Jetzt muss ich noch warten bis die 0.4mm sperrholz im hause ist. Dann ist möglich um zu starten mit die bau von die P111. Wie Erik sagt, ist am beste um zu starten mit dass heck von die P111
 

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Hoeby

User
Ich habe heute dass sperholz empfangen.
Nach dass essen gleich die in- und auslass gemacht. Dass war es für heute.
Ich habe die sjablone von Erik mit 5mm grösser gemacht. Dieses 5mm gebrauche ich um die beide seiten gegen einander zu kleben.

Morgen eine 60mm rohr holen für die auslass zu machen und auch eine 20mm aluminium stange.
Dieses stange gehe ich gebrauchen um die rumpf stabil auf zu bauen.
 

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marvin

User
Sehr schön!

Sehr schön!

Cooles Projekt!
Die Größe ist sehr gut gewählt. Martins Kleine P.111 ist doch arg klein.
Werde diese mal in meine Projektliste aufnehmen. Unbedingt weiter berichten.
 

Hoeby

User
Gestern habe ich die teilen für dass heck gemacht.
Eine gerade rohr für die fan. Die ware einfach zu machen.
Die ausen rohr ware nicht so einfach. Durch die kleine auslass durchschnitt, wollte dass sperholz nicht rund werden. Aber hab ich geschafft.

Wass sie auf die bilder sehen, ist noch nicht verklebt. Aber passt genau
 

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